For U.S. Citizens - 2012 Election Cycle Begins Now

Polls don't mean much right now but so that we have an idea where we stand right now here is the Pew Research poll released today. There is a lot more information at the link.



One of the more interesting polls was about Romney's qualifications and honesty. Go check out the whole thing. it is really interesting.

Oh, I'm sure Barry would much prefer Eric and the orangeman come by for a tipple rather than "doing whatever is necessary to make President Obama a one-term president" especially since they did not limit themselves to those things which would NOT trash the economy nor cause harm to average Americans - much less restrict themselves to the truth. There is no honor in Washington. Just two criminal cartels struggling for power. One of the cartels has to throw a bone or two to the poor and middle class, since that's where their support is. The other just goes full bore Ayn Rand, claiming the virtues of greed, and scaring the ignorant about their oponents by using meaninless terms like "Socialist" and trying to pin false definitions on them.

You can make statistics say whatever you want them to say. Posting this kind of thing does not accomplish much. LOL!

>> Just two criminal cartels struggling for power <<

Oooooh, I like that, Tom!! May I have your permission to borrow that line for future ‘social contexts’? (;-D

But from my outside vantage point, I would observe that what the two “cartels” are struggling for is M O N E Y…… albeit VIA power……. as control over the U.S. Treasury and Federal Tax coffers ‘tangibly’ represents THE Largest cash-flow trough in the history of the Human Race, hands-down!! Your National Debt should THAT desparately apparent......!

And I’ll certainly endorse the fact that you can arrange for polls “say whatever you want them to say”, like ANY set of financial books (‘cooked’ or otherwise!). Select ANY known demographic, and the poll results are essentially a given…… before The Poll is even conducted!

And regarding the above “Honesty Meter” results, I am truly astounded at the demonstrably short memory of The American Electorate. In hindsight, the sheer number of deeeeepy ‘ethical platform’ campaign promises made by your current President (pandering) pre-election that have taken a distinct and alarming ‘180’ over the past three years, is indeed frighteningly disappointing…….!

And particularly, the condemning of the opponent John McCain for HIS ‘hawkish’ Global View……. which we World Citizens certainly (once) indeed heralded…. and…. rather welcomingly embraced ‘The Audacity Of Hope’.

And while ‘what goes around (demonstrably) COMES around’, are not ANY Americans appallingly aghast by THAT ‘reality’ alone….. on an “Honesty Meter”? = [www.youtube.com]



And OH…… JFTR…… also “check out the WHOLE thing” here TOO (which would even make ANY Third World Junta’s currency printing presses “aghast”)! = [www.usdebtclock.org]

AND HERE….. TOO! = [www.youtube.com]

KR
Re: "Oooooh, I like that, Tom!! May I have your permission to borrow that line for future ‘social contexts’? (;-D"
Read the post again - carefully. Johnzap is not Tomzap. 2 different people.

OH..... with ALL that was "unloaded" in my early blurb, nancy, THAT is your ONLY comment...... about an (inexcusable) Freudian Slip !!!

Geeeeeeze....... "Only in Puerto", EH, vecinos!

AND..... (thus)..... Acknowledging my inability to “edit” my “monitored” posts, I’ll re-post here the intended edits….. =

“And while ‘what goes around (historically) COMES around’, are not ANY Americans appallingly aghasted by THAT caliber of now back-peddling global ‘militaristic reality’ alone (ala McCain!)….. in DIRECT regard to an ‘earned’, trustworthy “Honesty Meter”?

WE ON "THE OUTSIDE LOOKIN IN" CERTAINLY ARE......!

Or is it….. ALL…… just U.S. / D.C. ‘Dress-Up’…… for the initial votes ONLY (lead by Mick Fleetwood or otherwise)?



NTL (of course), “The Song Remains The Same” = [www.youtube.com]

KR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OH..... with ALL that was "unloaded" in my early
> blurb, nancy, THAT is your ONLY comment......
> about an (inexcusable) Freudian Slip !!!
>
> Geeeeeeze....... "Only in Puerto", EH, vecinos!
>

I don't discuss politics, sex or religion on public forums, arguing with someone
else is a futile waste of my time. The only point I wished to make is the one I did make.

However, I have no editor nor litterary contract; there is no copywrite; you are welcome to the terminology. If you are honor-bount to attribute, the name is John Williams. And I've only known Tom for 54 years or so; we didn't meet 'til 1st grade. Nancy wasn't around Georgetown quite that early. Didn't travel in Mexico with Tom 'til about '73, though...

"I don't discuss politics, sex or religion on public forums, arguing with someone
else is a futile waste of my time."

Bowling alone.

It is very difficult to turn around a huge economy that was destroyed as bad as the U.S. economy was destroyed in 2008. It cannot be done in two years or three years. In fact to do it in 5 years or 8 years is incredibly difficult. Even 10 years. We have examples to tell us that. The Great Depression was not turned around until WWII. It was doing better in 1937 until Roosevelt was forced to cut spending to deal with the deficit (sound familiar?) and the economy went back into recession. Unemployment did not recover to 1937 levels until the United States started spending massively and geared up for World War II in 1940*. It was huge government deficit spending before 1937 and then during WWII that got the economy rolling again. Japan’s lost decade(s) is another example of how hard it is to turn around a large economy. Japans problems have lasted 20 years. The U.S. economic disaster is (less than?) 4 years old. The economy could not possibly be turned around in that time. Also you have to remember that Obama has had to battle the congress all the way. An example is the the Debt Crisis in the summer of 2011 really damaged the economy.
*The debt should not be measured is actual dollars. I should be measured in % of GDP (Gross Domestic Product)

PB,
I think there are big differences between the 30s-40s and now. Our deficit spending in ww2 was on building stuff for the war and paying for workers and soldiers. Much of the money went to our own factories and working citizens. Our debt now is interest rate debt on money going to entitlement programs.

Economist still don't seem that good at predicting the future with their models. We do know from vast experience that massive debt can bring down individuals, companies, and countries. I predict that how goes the economy this year will go the election.

Delmar you are correct. My point would be that while it is true the the 1940s spending was for WWII it was spending nonetheless. The governmental should be spending heavily for workers and manufacturing for infrastructure and other things that the country needs. Alternative energy is another good place to spend because we are going to run out of oil sooner or later and the sooner we have an alternative the better. It is a good time to start right now. Substitute infrastructure for war. Eisenhower did the same thing with building the highway system. That graph up above points out the debt as a % of GDP. Yes we are heading up to where it was in the 1940s but we are also in a huge economic disaster as we were at that time. The graph shows that we can get out of this. It is not armageddon. It is just not the time to try to tackle the debt now. Not until the economy is on solid ground. Hurting the economy now would be much worse than the extra debt.
Do not put Social Security into the entitlement balloon. (I'm not saying you did)
As far as the election goes, with what is happening with the Republican primaries, the economy might not matter.

Once again..... CHALE, Flaco....... as I indelibly envy such 'brevity'!!

And while the (deservingly) UNcommon “brevity” of my Final Reply last night has (curiously) NOT ‘passed The Muster’, I would insist that stating A Mere Point (online or otherwise) would hardly qualify for being characterized as “arguing”.

Though, I AM genuinely saddened that the (apparently apathetic) disinterest in evaluating such queries as posed above would also be CONsidered as “a futile waste of my time”…… by ANY American!

After THE MOST Horrifically Barbaric event in the entirity of Human History that transpired on 9/11, I would have “Imagined” that such essential ‘internal evaluation’ of core U.S. foreign policy and its ever-continuing Global Military Dalliances would have been (and STILL BE) a top priority dominating The American Dialogue….. (ethnocentrically, blind-folded or otherwise).

But, you’re right…… F-it….. lets just go bowling (instead)!! = [www.youtube.com]

>> The governmental should be spending heavily for workers and manufacturing for infrastructure and other things that the country needs. <<

You forgot to ADD "spending within its revenue means"...... IF that in fact was your proposed intention!!

Though if in doubt, then might I thoroughly recommend that you Double-Check the European Union right about now (particularly the solvency of Greece, Italy, AND Spain..... with France and Germany economically 'hinged' and runnin a 'close second', too..... right about NOW!).

And the U.S.....? = [www.youtube.com]

It is so frustrating when Republicans get all worked up over the debt. They have no credibility on the debt. All they ever do is double it when they are in office and leave it for the Democrats to clean up. When Clinton left office there was a surplus. More money coming in than going out.



When Bush came in Bush said that he wanted to return the money to tax payers. He gave tax breaks to the super rich. Bush and the Republicans did not care about government debt. Bush said, "We recognize, loud and clear, the surplus is not the government's money," he said. "The surplus is the people's money. And we ought to trust them with their own money." "Reagan," Vice President Dick Cheney famously declared in 2002, "proved deficits don't matter." Then Bush and the Republicans did the Medicare part D bill and did not pay for it and it cost $727.3 billion (2009-2018) . This is an example of money that Bush spent that is part of our deficit now that Obama is getting blamed for according to the Right Wing. And Bush gave another tax cut to the fabulously rich and started a war because of a lie costing trillions of dollars more that we did not have (Another example of Bush spending that Obama is getting blamed for because it is part of the deficit). When the economy was booming Bush did not reverse the tax cuts. Now that the Republicans destroyed the economy they are all worried about the debt. Why were they not worried when we were in surplus? Why did Bush say, "We recognize, loud and clear, the surplus is not the government's money, the surplus is the people's money. And we ought to trust them with their own money."? The ONLY way to pay off the debt is if the budget is IN surplus! If the Republicans are so worried about the debt why didn't they use the Clinton surplus to pay off the debt instead of giving tax breaks for the ubber wealthy? There is a cyclical swing in budget angst that reflects the complete victory of the conservative deficit narrative. That is the main reason why people are worried about it now. The Republicans are not being honest about the debt and they haven't been honest for a long time.

Pointing fingers at who is “to blame”, PB…… or WORSE…… denying that The Problem even EXISTS at all will certainly NOT safeguard your country’s economy from suffering the equal inevitabilities so well-demonstrated worldwide, amigo!

In fact, I would venture to suggest that “it” just THAT caliber of American (side show) “Left v Right” combat-as-entertainment in-fighting that has been purposely impressed on the American people as a premeditated means of decoying Larger Public Awareness AWAY from the mounting severities and inevitable ramifications of just such ever-increasing debt-spending.

And the ‘reality’ of such “mounting deficit severity” has little or nothing to do with Public Sentimate Meters…….. OR “polls” (graphed or otherwise!), beyond perhaps “its” INTERNAL impact on consumer confidence-sparked recession (now double-dipping or otherwise!).

ISR, I genuinely believe that perhaps doing a bit of ‘Googling’ in global comparison of Gross National Debts, annual debt-spending, and annual interest PAID on such mounting debt as a % ratio of GNP / GDP, will inevitably (and hopefully!) prove ‘instructive’, while justifiably setting-off some National (austerity) Alarms!

IMHO, your country is being bankrupted behind-your-backs, as y’all (willfully) distract yourselves AWAY from your OPAQUE Priorities through such self-initiated (ultimately meaningless) tit-for-tat ‘politicizations’……

And, the “curious” recent ploys by your own Bernanke to desperately avoid impending deflation by what is considered by MANY to be but artificially propping-up the U.S. Dollar against world currencies, should tell you at least a little sumthun, neighbor…… “right about now”!

As should the fact that now MANY savvy private and institutional investors are increasingly hedging and moving asset OUT of both the NYSE and U.S. Dollar-based investments…… for arguably a 12-24 month window for a necessary “look / see”!!

But yeah, denying the problem will certainly NOT solve the problem.
.
Nor will counter-productive in-fighting….. IMHO! = [www.youtube.com]

Hmmm...facts and reason vs. fear and intolerance. I'm not wasting much time following the GOP primaries!

You can make statistics say whatever you want them to say. Posting this kind of thing does not accomplish much. LOL!

That's right, LT, when the facts don't fit your opinions, the problem must be with the facts.

The polls only show how people are thinking about the candidates in the Republican primaries. They are not intended to show the state of the economy. The charts/graphs show what the economy has done and compare the economy to other times when the economy was in similar shape. I think it is helpful to see the comparison with a graphic.

I want to make it clear that I know there is a real problem with the debt and borrowing. My point is that now it is more important to work on unemployment. If unemployment comes down then the economy will grow. When the economy grows then the government will take in more money which will cut deficits. It is called “growing the economy”. What I meant to get across earlier in relation to the debt was that at this time in space the debt is not as important as other things like unemployment and economy growth. It is important, obviously, very important but fixing it by trying to reduce the deficit only or primarily is the wrong way to do it. The charts show this. History shows it. With the charts you can SEE it.

Looking back is good to do so we can see what they would do in the future. It is not so much blame as it is example and experience. When they say that they are very very very concerned about the debt and deficit (D&D) and you look back and you can see that they are not concerned about the D&D then you can deduce that they are lying and will in fact drive up the D&D. You can see that Democrats actually do something about the D&D. The reason the D&D are going up now under Obama is because of the past administration. That is a fact and saying that blaming it on the past administration gets us nowhere is not true.

Understanding what is happening is important to figure out how to get out of it and who not to put in charge. I understand why the Republicans have not even mentioned George Bush’s name during the primaries. He ruined the country even though they said when he left he was the best president in a century (or some such nonsense). Understanding what got us into this nightmare is important because the Republicans what to implement the same policies that got us here. Ignoring it could easily get us back to where we were.

Yes the economy is getting better but that is in spite of the Republicans best effort to keep the economy down for political reasons so that they can get elected. After all, Mitch McConnell said that his main job is to replace Obama. I would hope that his main job would be to get the country back on track after his Party destroyed the economy. Because he is focused on replacing Obama he has to make Obama look bad. If he and Boneher and Cantor and the rest of the Republicans can keep the economy in bad shape they think they can get their people elected. What have they done to fix unemployment since 2010 when they took over congress? Nothing, because the worse that unemployment is the better they think they will do. Remember, it is about the economy, correct? Comparing the two Parties is important to know who is doing what.

Comparing the U.S. economy to the Greek economy it is a mistake. The U.S. economy is not Greece. Paul Krugman explains it concisely and precisely. (Krugman explains it more in his blog. It is worth a read to understand the reality as opposed to the lies that politicians would have us believe.)
“Fiscal austerity in the face of a depressed economy does little to improve your long-run debt position, and may even hurt it. One thing the advocates of austerity never mention is that it isn’t working anywhere right now.”

“I’ve (Krugman) been complaining for a while about the Hellenization of economic discourse (This is not as complicated as it may sound.) — the way everyone is being treated as being just like Greece, when in fact Greece — with a long history of fiscal irresponsibility, very high public debt, and a country without a currency — doesn’t bear much resemblance even to the other peripheral Europeans, let alone the United States.”



“So there is no plausible argument on behalf of the claim that fiscal contraction expands output; there is, on the other hand, a very plausible argument to the effect that fiscal contraction doesn’t even help the fiscal situation.”

Well..... while I referenced the ENTIRE "European Union" (and not simply / easily / obviously Greece!)...... I dare suggest that comparative debt ratios throughout the Union (and U.S.!) are EQUALLY in what IS considered by MANY (for quite a number of years!) to certainly be in the UNdeniable Danger Zone at present…… as thoughtfully defined by sensible Post Great Depression ‘economic guidelines’!

The fact that such (once sensible) guidelines ARE now being coyly “explained away” as some new justification for wanton misappropriation and (IMHO irresponsible) mismanagement…… well…… please DO keep in mind that just THAT SAME caliber of (self-serving) ‘re-definition’ of what is CONsidered “safely legitimate” was EXACTLY The Basis of the sub-prime mortgage debacle where A). previously UNqualified buyers were allowed to “spend beyond their means”, which B). arguably lay at heart to the current economic woes ‘domino-ing’ across America…… (destabilizing financial markets with now demonstrably reverberating global impacts….. since 2008)!

BUT…… “it is more important to work on unemployment. If unemployment comes down then the economy will grow.”

Certainly agreed, neighbor. Though here AGAIN, “how” do you expect unemployment to come down when your own federal government has (beginning with Clinton) allowed (and even tax-incentivized) the wholesale EXPORT of your core Manufacturing Life Blood (hence job base AND tax base!) to foreign countries for OVER TWENTY YEARS now???? UNarguably, The Chicken is simply (and now finally) ‘comin home to roost’...... as has been 'warned' repeatedly by economists for decades!



And while THAT caliber of “wonton mismanagement” (and SELF-throat-cutting!) is demonstrably A First in the entirety of Human History (nationalistic or otherwise), perhaps your “Boss” said it best (WELL over twenty years ago!):

“Those jobs are going, boys…… and they AIN’T comin back”……! = [www.youtube.com]

Didn't L.T. want Herman Cain as President? Cain is now being wooed by Dancing with the Stars. That about says it all.

PS...... In güey of ‘punctuation’ (and/or perhaps confirmation), THESE types of REsultant, necessarily REactive proposals (and/or maneuvering inevitabilities!) ARE now visibly a rather ‘common’ world topic of repeated (IMF / WB) evaluation amid the now interdependent Globalization of world commerce-n-currency flows……

[moneymorning.com]

IOW, as the U.S. capability rapidly (and justifiably) “slips” as The World’s Banker, hence goes TOO its once prized status as the ‘reserve currency of choice’……. And especially as China now holds 44%+ of U.S. ‘debt paper’ ALONE (and MUCH of the entire 1st World, TOO).

Thus, as thoroughly “learned” by decades of former U.S. example, The Debtor N E V E R ‘defines terms’ to The Lender!

A “New World Order”? THAT you can count on….. and predictably when China holds FIFTY ONE PERCENT of such “debt paper”…….!



ISR, "Another GOOD Investment" (IMHO)...... right about now!! = [www.youtube.com]

"Most horrible...in history?" Aren't we being a bit hyperbolic? Or are you a Holocost denier? Then again, Pol Pot's government shredded a lot of Cambodians; Stalin's purge after purge after purge; Mao's Cultural Revolution; those smallpox-tainted blankets we gave the Indians rank up there somewhere; check Nauatl speakers about their view of the Inquisition and other Conquest-related killings (about 70% of the indigenous population); I suspect that the Armenians haven't developed a real strong love for the Turks, either. Don't get me wrong: anyone who indiscriminately kills is unspeakably evil and to do it in the name of religion is about as big a perversion as there is. Any harm that comes to the Taliban, Al Queda, or their supporters was massively earned on 9/11. And to teach that you will be rewarded for being martyred while commiting dispicable acts is the type of perversion that only the evil of fundamentalism could bring about. But you skip over a lot of history to give the ranking you did.

Many of KR's points seem to go right past ole PB. Demonstrating again the Gringos propensity for arguing about nothing while the coyote steals all the chickens. Anyone who has ever had the balls to create a business and successfully grow and run it for years can tell you that the numbers in the US lead to failure! Saying that one party does this and the other guys do that is just the BS they want you to argue about. They are all F**KED UP!!! Washington is populated with elitist snobs who have seldom or ever worked a day in their lives. Most politicians are so busy filling their own pockets they could care less that national spending is out of control.

Growing the size of government is not creating jobs. Selling out all of Americas Industry is criminal at least. What the Hell are you going to tax to pay off the debt? Intellectual Property? If you don't make it to sell, customers have nothing to buy! The US government has demonstrated they can be bought so many times it is beyond belief. The most recent failure in our economy is not just the blame of one party, they all took the payoff and looked the other way while Wall Street bent us collectively over the fence and screwed us twice.

Ole' PB likes his graphics to enforce his points, but ignores the truth while playing politics. The system as it exists is broken! The only hope for America is an educated and involved populace who is willing to take control of their own destiny; so basically, were F*CK*D! No one wants to be bothered. And as for educated, the average Joe has watched more hours of the evening news in his life than he ever spent paying attention during civics class. So his education is just what the politicians wanted, easily scared and led around by the nose.

For me living most of the year in Mexico insulates me from the Idiocy up North. You can't borrow your way out of debt, simple but true. You can't sell from an empty wagon, old saying that is still true. And you can't tax your way into prosperity, just doesn't work that way.

If they are an incumbent, send them home. Tell the new congressmen you want fiscal reform and term limits. When you don't get it, send them home too. Repeat until satisfied. Now I only wish I knew how to extract my dollars from the US without having to discount everything beyond reason. Oh well, challenges are good. Rojo

>> Selling out all of America's Industry is criminal at least <<

And At BEST, rojo.....!!

Government can create jobs or jump start job creation would be more accurate. An easy example is the highway building under Eisenhower. The New Deal created millions(?) of jobs. Infrastructure building. The point is that we are in crisis and the economy needs help to get going and the government has a responsibility to get things going. Should the government be the souse of jobs just for the sake of employing people? Not unless it is is to jump start the economy when in crisis. Or fix what needs to be repair. Roads, bridges etc. All that has a domino effect for creating or keeping other jobs going. We are in crisis regarding unemployment and the economy. Something has to be done to get things going. If we were in a boom economy there would be no need for the government to try to "create" jobs although the government would still be employing people doing thing like building roads etc.

Do you know why President Eisenhower inaugurated the interstate highway program during his administration? It's a fascinating story:

As a young lieutenant in 1919, he got orders to drive across the U.S. on existing roads, from Washington, D.C.. to San Francisco. It took him 59 days to drive from coast to coast.

The military, realizing it needed a faster land route for the movement of troops and equipment, cross-country, was the motivating force for the interstate highway system, which Eisenhower accomplished when he became president.

From Wikipedia:

"Eisenhower's support of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 can be directly attributed to his experiences in 1919 as a participant in the U.S. Army's first Transcontinental Motor Convoy across the United States on the historic Lincoln Highway, which was the first road across America. The highly publicized 1919 convoy was intended, in part, to dramatize the need for better main highways and continued federal aid. The convoy left the Ellipse south of the White House in Washington D.C. on July 7, 1919, and headed for Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. From there, it followed the Lincoln Highway to San Francisco. Bridges cracked and were rebuilt, vehicles became stuck in mud, and equipment broke, but the convoy was greeted warmly by communities across the country. The convoy reached San Francisco on September 6, 1919."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 09:42AM by Farkem.